Fuck Nukes

[Oxll]

Hey guys. Don't know who really cares what the governments do, but if you like sticking it to the government Sign the following petition!

http://www.avaaz.org/en/time_to_global_zero/?cl=270460641&v=3604

Basically there is a chance to reduce the amount of nukes on earth, and next week Obama and Putin will be sitting down with other countries to work on a new plan to reach zero nukes on earth eventually.

Most likely they will laugh this off, or use this opportunity to create new legislation to put pressure on countries trying to build nukes (Korea, Iran). I personally don't understand how billions of dollars get spent on bombs, when people in America can't even afford their mortgages. So sign up and say fuck you to the money hoarding weapon makers.

[Incubus]

Hey guys. Don't know who really cares what the governments do, but if you like sticking it to the government Sign the following petition!

http://www.avaaz.org/en/time_to_global_zero/?cl=270460641&v=3604

Basically there is a chance to reduce the amount of nukes on earth, and next week Obama and Putin will be sitting down with other countries to work on a new plan to reach zero nukes on earth eventually.

Most likely they will laugh this off, or use this opportunity to create new legislation to put pressure on countries trying to build nukes (Korea, Iran). I personally don't understand how billions of dollars get spent on bombs, when people in America can't even afford their mortgages. So sign up and say fuck you to the money hoarding weapon makers.




It's idiotic. Pandora is already out of her box. no way to put her back in. Pandora has PREVENTED WWIII from taking place. The threat of Total anhilation for mutual parties = peace on earth.

embrace the horror.

I'm totally against any NEW regimes developing nukes as well as Nukes in the hands of people that the world has come to know as terrorists and/or terrorist supporters.

[Lithrien]

i make my own nukes











IN THE TOILET

[brekken]

MAD Mutually assured destruction. thank God for Nukes, because they make people shit their pants and behave. now as far as iran or any arab country haveing nukes, and anyone with expirience with the arab people will vouche for this, arabs live by a different set of morals and ethics then the rest of the world. if arabs have nukes, and the muhamed cartoons came out, then the arabs would nuke every country that printed them. they wouldnt care that they would all die. they wouldnt care that their families would die. so long as the get vengance for a wrong done to them, any cost is worth it. an Arab will happily die to spit in your face if you called him stupid. these are not the people that we want with nukes!

[brekken]

also, have you heard the statement "in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king"? if all nukes on earth are disbanded, the technology still exists. someone will have one nuke and he will hold all the planet in terror

[Doula Doom]

Your point about mutually assured destruction falls in the face of any religious faction that believes in martyrdom. There is simply no reason to have a weapon of that (or any) level of destruction beyond hunting for food.

[Sith]

So I'm not the only one who uses thermonuclear fusion explosive devices while game hunting eh Doula.

[Braddoc]

I thought this thread was going to be about something cool, like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYllJ3UFs6Q

[brekken]

MAD has kept us safe for a while doula, and as long as one of those wacko religions doesnt get nukes, it will continue to work. we just need to keep nukes out of the hands of arabs

[Oxll]

Brekken you got my point to some degree. Religion is a scary thing. But saying Arabs are the only ones to fear is being ignorant. Americans have alot of fucked up religious people aswell. Not only that they are the only ones to have used nukes on people so far, so regarding morales.... Americans are right up there with Arabs. Arabs might have a higher percentage of their people involved in fucked up religion, but I'm just as scared of a gun totting hill billy from southern USA.

I'm not in favor of 0 nukes either. I'd like to see some on stand by usage by a group of people like the UN. The current UN I wouldn't trust with a taser gun, so alot of work would be necessary to get a group to be trusted with the most powerful weapons on earth.

The money being put into these weapon developments is the main issue for me. I don't understand how people can starve, go homeless or not receive medical/mental help when we spend trillions on war. Bottom line fuck our current governments for treating us people like slaves and using our tax dollars for selfish profits off weapons. One reason we don't have hydrogen vehicles on our roads is due to oil taxes being used to fund our Airforce, and Navy's. The numbers are all available, and to see where the money goes is insulting to any intelligent north american.

[Sith]

...t I'm just as scared of a gun totting hill billy from southern USA.

TBH those guys don't scare me as much... they'll be very direct with their intentions + you will know if they're comin for ya. The silent gun-toting sociopath however you'll never see coming.

[Kalypto]

Brekken you got my point to some degree. Religion is a scary thing. But saying Arabs are the only ones to fear is being ignorant. Americans have alot of fucked up religious people aswell. Not only that they are the only ones to have used nukes on people so far, so regarding morales.... Americans are right up there with Arabs. Arabs might have a higher percentage of their people involved in fucked up religion, but I'm just as scared of a gun totting hill billy from southern USA.

I'm not in favor of 0 nukes either. I'd like to see some on stand by usage by a group of people like the UN. The current UN I wouldn't trust with a taser gun, so alot of work would be necessary to get a group to be trusted with the most powerful weapons on earth.

The money being put into these weapon developments is the main issue for me. I don't understand how people can starve, go homeless or not receive medical/mental help when we spend trillions on war. Bottom line fuck our current governments for treating us people like slaves and using our tax dollars for selfish profits off weapons. One reason we don't have hydrogen vehicles on our roads is due to oil taxes being used to fund our Airforce, and Navy's. The numbers are all available, and to see where the money goes is insulting to any intelligent north american.

QFT. As for MAD, I'm rather disappointed that the state of humanity takes a gamble on trusting the worst of human nature for our continued existence.

*sigh* life is so bleak.

[Incubus]

QFT. As for MAD, I'm rather disappointed that the state of humanity takes a gamble on trusting the worst of human nature for our continued existence.

*sigh* life is so bleak.



There is a way to eliminate nukes completely as well as the technology so that we wouldn't have to rely on trusting those in command to not go ballistic (literally) BUT that solution is not only unreasonable but it is also not practical so we are unfortunately stuck with M.A.D.


Do you know the solution I am talking about?

[Vvash]

There is a way to eliminate nukes completely as well as the technology so that we wouldn't have to rely on trusting those in command to not go ballistic (literally) BUT that solution is not only unreasonable but it is also not practical so we are unfortunately stuck with M.A.D.


Do you know the solution I am talking about?
You're talking about the cure for AIDS right?

[Incubus]

You're talking about the cure for AIDS right?


You could use the same technique to 100% end Aids as well.

[brekken]

Brekken you got my point to some degree. Religion is a scary thing. But saying Arabs are the only ones to fear is being ignorant. Americans have alot of fucked up religious people aswell. Not only that they are the only ones to have used nukes on people so far, so regarding morales.... Americans are right up there with Arabs. Arabs might have a higher percentage of their people involved in fucked up religion, but I'm just as scared of a gun totting hill billy from southern USA.

I'm not in favor of 0 nukes either. I'd like to see some on stand by usage by a group of people like the UN. The current UN I wouldn't trust with a taser gun, so alot of work would be necessary to get a group to be trusted with the most powerful weapons on earth.

The money being put into these weapon developments is the main issue for me. I don't understand how people can starve, go homeless or not receive medical/mental help when we spend trillions on war. Bottom line fuck our current governments for treating us people like slaves and using our tax dollars for selfish profits off weapons. One reason we don't have hydrogen vehicles on our roads is due to oil taxes being used to fund our Airforce, and Navy's. The numbers are all available, and to see where the money goes is insulting to any intelligent north american.


the difference ox, is that america is not run by religious wackos or gun toteing hill billys as you called them. the arab world is made up of countries run by the religion. now if america was ran by abunch of religious wackos that preached that a certain type of people should be "pushed into the ocean" then i would be afraid of nukes in our hands too.

[Oxll]

EDIT - Definition of GUN TOTTING HILL BILLY = Cheney. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgYh_rX0LYk

USA is not the only ones stuck with a Christian Government. Canada is in the same boat, Stephen harper is a good christian boy.

At 4:10 in that video they mention that you have to be christian to be president. The pastor sorta denies it, and says for one thing the president couldn't be Muslim.

The radicals not being in charge is a bold statement. Cheney is hardcore, and to me he is on the same level as a screaming Hamas leader, or Taliban priest. He was directly in control of many aspects of government, and thats what I hated about the Bush party. Obama is a more laid back christian. So for 4 years we should be ok and not have to worry about rash decisions to invade the wrong country.

We think we have evolved into a more intelligent group of people. But on a large scale, the crusades still exist and our governments still fight over difference in religion, when people on individual levels can get along with people from other religions. I'm just sick of letting these stupid bastards run the country, and hope for some serious change over the next couple terms.

[Kalypto]

Um. Wasn't USA founded on Christian ideals? "In God we trust" and all that.

[Incubus]

EDIT - Definition of GUN TOTTING HILL BILLY = Cheney. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgYh_rX0LYk

USA is not the only ones stuck with a Christian Government. Canada is in the same boat, Stephen harper is a good christian boy.

At 4:10 in that video they mention that you have to be christian to be president. The pastor sorta denies it, and says for one thing the president couldn't be Muslim.

The radicals not being in charge is a bold statement. Cheney is hardcore, and to me he is on the same level as a screaming Hamas leader, or Taliban priest. He was directly in control of many aspects of government, and thats what I hated about the Bush party. Obama is a more laid back christian. So for 4 years we should be ok and not have to worry about rash decisions to invade the wrong country.

We think we have evolved into a more intelligent group of people. But on a large scale, the crusades still exist and our governments still fight over difference in religion, when people on individual levels can get along with people from other religions. I'm just sick of letting these stupid bastards run the country, and hope for some serious change over the next couple terms.



Hey Ox...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIVd7YT0oWA

You are incorrect my friend and I actually agree with Obama's complete statement here found on Youtube. "although we have a large christian base, I don't not consider us a christian nation, a jewish nation , a muslim nation... but instead I consider us a nation of citizens..."

He is correct.

You are incorrect.
He didn't say "I don't consider us a christian nation , a muslim nation, a jewish nation... but instead I consider us a nation of citizens EXCEPT FOR THAT GUN TOTING AL QAEDA WANNABE DICK CHENNEY.

your opinion of the man is simply that... your opinion and nothing more. don't worry, i don't like everyone either and I bet Dick Chenney had a few favorites too. Equating Our ex vice president to terrorist leaders is the opitomy of exaggeration and a blatent disregard for reality.

Also...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2Jr03ADQmk

JFK was Roman Catholic. Listen to this speech.


Although the majority of our nation agrees (approx 90%) that there is some sort of higher power and/or being we still allow voices from the 10% to ring out loud and clear that they believe in no such thing.

Our nation is a tolerant nation to ALL religeons, race, color, creed, and beliefs although we've had our dim moments in our history that you could argue does not jive with my present statement. You could argue that in reference to the entire world at one point or another and your position would be equally irrelevant. We live in the present, the here and now and we as Americans reflect on our past mistakes and have vowed to move away from those mistakes by not forgetting them but INSTEAD remembering them so that we DO NOT repeat them.
To sum this up instead of writing out a 500 page novel... you nor can anyone else say that the USA having nukes is the same moral equivelant as IRAN, North Korea, and any other Lunatic fringe regime having Nukes.

there is a tremendous difference.

I hope you now recognize that.

[Incubus]

Um. Wasn't USA founded on Christian ideals? "In God we trust" and all that.


a Judeo/Christian belief system, yes.

Read ANY of our founding documents and it is clear that although we have God foremost in our minds we would never deny anyone the right to Life, Liberty and the persuit of happiness in ANYWAY they chose to live or believe. Individual freedom was paramount in importance to the founders.

... unless you were black, a woman, chinese, etc... yes we have been a hypocritical society at times I am ashamed to say but I will not deny past wrongs for the sake of political expedience.

The seperation of church and state was also very important to the founders as well.
The government has NO state run religeon where the govt tells the church what to do and vica versa, no religous establishment directs the government what to do. the people simply follow their beliefs where it takes them individually.
In essence that was Jefferson's intent.

Later JFK explained it in his own words...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAvHHTt2czU&feature=PlayList&p=96DD5DCEBF8BF418&index=0&playnext=1


in a nut shell, the country, although founded on these judeo/christian beliefs would in no way shape or form endorse one type of religeon (or lack thereof) over another and no religeon would endorse one party or government over another.
your religeous beliefs were beliefs that you as the individual can choose to follow of your own free will and NOT because the government forced it upon you like it is done in so many other nations that OX would like to suggest are the moral equivalent of the USA in this regard.

ridiculous. absolutely ridiculous.

[Oxll]

SK thank you for the youtube video. Obama is one hell of a speaker, and is definately turning things around in America. However like you said it is our opinions here, and I'm unable to agree with you or Obama. America is hardcore Christian/Catholic. There are many things that occur on a daily basis that proves this point.

National holidays in USA are all Christian. There are many jews in powerful positions across america, yet not one Jewish holiday is reckonized by a stat holiday.

Your own department of homeland security seems to also pick on particular people. I have many muslim and persian friends. They literally can't go to America. If we go, they get pulled aside for up to 2 hours of interogation. Its seriously fucking bullshit. I cruise right through every customs in mere minutes, while these guys get the third degree on why its wrong to be brown.

The Republican party has so many Preachers/Pastors that I can say that over half of them are involved with some Christian Church at the present.

Now those are just some points off the top of my head. What I hope you meant was that while America may be a Christian country, it supports freedom of religion. Also America is a mixing pool, so yes the ideals of a mixed religion country are there, but America is run by Christian power.

I'm not saying ALL Americans are Christian. Your government however is totally controlled by Christian ideals, and when I said the Crusades are still occuring I was serious.

[Kalypto]

a Judeo/Christian belief system, yes.

Read ANY of our founding documents and it is clear that although we have God foremost in our minds we would never deny anyone the right to Life, Liberty and the persuit of happiness in ANYWAY they chose to live or believe. Individual freedom was paramount in importance to the founders.

... unless you were black, a woman, chinese, etc... yes we have been a hypocritical society at times I am ashamed to say but I will not deny past wrongs for the sake of political expedience.

The seperation of church and state was also very important to the founders as well.
The government has NO state run religeon where the govt tells the church what to do and vica versa, no religous establishment directs the government what to do. the people simply follow their beliefs where it takes them individually.
In essence that was Jefferson's intent.

Later JFK explained it in his own words...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAvHHTt2czU&feature=PlayList&p=96DD5DCEBF8BF418&index=0&playnext=1


in a nut shell, the country, although founded on these judeo/christian beliefs would in no way shape or form endorse one type of religeon (or lack thereof) over another and no religeon would endorse one party or government over another.
your religeous beliefs were beliefs that you as the individual can choose to follow of your own free will and NOT because the government forced it upon you like it is done in so many other nations that OX would like to suggest are the moral equivalent of the USA in this regard.

ridiculous. absolutely ridiculous.

I agree. What I'm trying to illustrate however is that Christianity etc is the vox populi belief system here in the states, regardless whether or not it is forced/free will that attributes it so. This is the same with Middle-Eastern countries. The governments do not endorse the religion, it is merely the culture of the people.

EDIT: I disagree with other nations not being allowed to have nukes. In all fairness, the USA is most guilty in this matter if but for the fact that the USA is the only known country in the world to have ever deployed nuclear weapons to military effect. Twice.

Saying "we've learned from our past mistakes and therefore we should be trusted over all nations to wield nukes" is optimistic and granted, a step forward, but in the eyes of the little countries it seems bigotry.

You cannot ride a moral high horse when you've trodden the low road.

[brekken]

ixen, those books i been telling you about, you know the paper glued together at the edges with words on them? go find one. the middle east not only endorses islam, but some are openly theocracies! i.e. the Islamic republic of iran. others are absolute monarchs whom endorse islam as the only allowed religion. i.e. saudi arabia, qutar, and oman. while these countries do not all openly persecute people of other religions, the citizens and radicals in them have on numerous occasions attacked and killed people of other religions. the government either denies, covers up, or blames the victims for these crimes

[brekken]

oh and lets not forget syria, which only allows the Ba'ath party. you know the islamic radical terrorist guys?

[Incubus]

SK thank you for the youtube video. Obama is one hell of a speaker, and is definately turning things around in America. However like you said it is our opinions here, and I'm unable to agree with you or Obama. America is hardcore Christian/Catholic. There are many things that occur on a daily basis that proves this point.

National holidays in USA are all Christian. There are many jews in powerful positions across america, yet not one Jewish holiday is reckonized by a stat holiday.

Your own department of homeland security seems to also pick on particular people. I have many muslim and persian friends. They literally can't go to America. If we go, they get pulled aside for up to 2 hours of interogation. Its seriously fucking bullshit. I cruise right through every customs in mere minutes, while these guys get the third degree on why its wrong to be brown.

The Republican party has so many Preachers/Pastors that I can say that over half of them are involved with some Christian Church at the present.

Now those are just some points off the top of my head. What I hope you meant was that while America may be a Christian country, it supports freedom of religion. Also America is a mixing pool, so yes the ideals of a mixed religion country are there, but America is run by Christian power.

I'm not saying ALL Americans are Christian. Your government however is totally controlled by Christian ideals, and when I said the Crusades are still occuring I was serious.





It is getting to be a full time job educating you. Don't they have schools that actually teach where you're from?

here ya go...

http://www.madmanmike.com/us_holidays_dates.html


All of our national holidays are christian holidays? I hope the link I just provided to you opens your eyes and enlightens you. Every national holiday we have is christian? Although I like to think that the world would be a better place if Christmas was everyday, unfortunately it is just December 25th :D
Chanuka Dec 12th - Dec 19th 7 SEVEN days to the Jews Recognized
Kwanzaa Dec 26th - Jan 1 another week for Kwanzaa loving folks

Christians get Christmas and Easter and it isn't like ONLY christians celebrate those days. the whole fucking country ends up getting in on the celebration and try to make it their own holiday and I SAY FINE. the more the merrier.

and don't forget http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8g4Ztf7hIM



you then go on to whine about....

"Your own department of homeland security seems to also pick on particular people. I have many muslim and persian friends. They literally can't go to America. If we go, they get pulled aside for up to 2 hours of interogation. Its seriously fucking bullshit. I cruise right through every customs in mere minutes, while these guys get the third degree on why its wrong to be brown. "



There is nothing wrong with being brown but there is something wrong about this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDh_pvv1tUM

now you can HOPEFULLY understand why we are a bit on edge with people of Islamic origins. My country has made every effort to NOT make this a war on Islam but instead a war on radicals that come from within the Islamic faith. so tell your friends... tough titty from me if we are being a bit more cautious with fuckers that look like this fuck and those like him... http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6426443.ece


you shouldn't fear our government OX. you should instead fear people like me that aren't as nice as my government.
I am 100% supportive of our presence in the middle east to a much larger scale than present. I did not feel like this prior to the USS cole, the Kenya embassy bombing, the Marine barracks car bomb in Lebannon, the 1st attack on the world trade center in 1993, and every other fucked up bloody thing to have come out of that region of the globe INCLUDING the events on 9-11-2001. so again kindly tell your friends from me TOUGH TITTY.

deal with it fuckers.

now you can argue that we pissed people off in the past that brought on these events so it is our fault. why yes you could now couldn't you. My answer to that is a very loud TOUGH TITTY once again.

do you not believe for a single moment that the USA has used INCREDIBLE restraint in dealing with these issues? Do you not understand that we could have simply anhilated every man woman and child in the middle east with a push of a button at anytime?

have we? NO.

instead my government blows shit up, kills the appropriate individuals while minimizing collateral damage to innocent civilians as much as possible, and then spends HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of my tax dollars and the tax dollars of hundreds of millions of Americans to REBUILD what we have unfortunately had to destroy BECAUSE of assholes that look like your friends.

TOUGH TITTY.

up to me? I would have killed every man woman and child in that entire fucking shit stain of a troubled region of the globe the day after my final straw... 9-11.

your friends should count there fucking blessings that I'm not running things.


the rest of your post is talking about how are leaders of our country are very christian.

COUNT YOUR FUCKING BLESSINGS MOTHER FUCKER THAT THEY ARE.



ps... i lub joO ;)

[Incubus]

I agree. What I'm trying to illustrate however is that Christianity etc is the vox populi belief system here in the states, regardless whether or not it is forced/free will that attributes it so. This is the same with Middle-Eastern countries. The governments do not endorse the religion, it is merely the culture of the people.

EDIT: I disagree with other nations not being allowed to have nukes. In all fairness, the USA is most guilty in this matter if but for the fact that the USA is the only known country in the world to have ever deployed nuclear weapons to military effect. Twice.

Saying "we've learned from our past mistakes and therefore we should be trusted over all nations to wield nukes" is optimistic and granted, a step forward, but in the eyes of the little countries it seems bigotry.

You cannot ride a moral high horse when you've trodden the low road.



I believe brekken said all that was needed here in response to you about this.

but we have trodden the low road cuz we dropped a cpl of nukes on japan to end WWII?
we could have also invaded and killed just as many people and destroyed much more instead of dropping those bombs. in your eyes... would that have been the moral high road?


This man took the moral low road?


I believe brekken said all that was needed here in response to you about this.

but we have trodden the low road cuz we dropped a cpl of nukes on japan to end WWII?
we could have also invaded and killed just as many people and destroyed much more instead of dropping those bombs. in your eyes... would that have been the moral high road?


oh btw this man walked the low road?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VqQAf74fsE&feature=related

your argument is ass.
your argument is ass.

[Kalypto]

The point still remains that the USA is the only country to have ever used Nukes on another country. If and for whatever reason, Nuclear assault is the penultimate defining element of moral standards as we discuss it here.

The events of WW2 and what may/may have occurred if things played out differently is immaterial.

[Incubus]

:eek:
The point still remains that the USA is the only country to have ever used Nukes on another country. If and for whatever reason, Nuclear assault is the penultimate defining element of moral standards as we discuss it here.

The events of WW2 and what may/may have occurred if things played out differently is immaterial.



yea so what?

we needed to test out 2 bombs for the world. i couldn't have thougt of a better target to use them on back then either.

and since their use, the world is scared shitless and thus has not enterred into another World War.

so maybe the ends do justify the means in this case.

[Kalypto]

"We needed to test out 2 bombs for the world."

By that rhetoric, you could execute any hostile action and claim it is a "test for the world." Pearl harbor - the Japanese were testing the effectiveness of 2 waves of Kamikaze fighters "for the world."

No. Simply because the USA is supposedly "the standard" of human morality, does not give it the right to "test things out for the better of the world." Using the rationale of "the end justifies the means" to account for human life is flawed, hypocritical and immoral. That's like saying;

"As the self proclaimed leading example of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, the USA hereby declares its moral superiority over that of people of other nations, and thus with this resolution find it an apt and reasonable decision to compromise the right to life of 200,000 completely innocent civilians, in order to promote freedom and democracy. Thereby we present a dubious solution to a vague presumption that another world war may or may not be avoided because of fear from other countries of our nuclear power."

And, no. There have been several major military conflicts after world war 2 that America has participated in.

Thus, the end does not justify the means, and even if it did, the end (World peace or a complete absence of wars/battles/etc.) has not been reached by the means (the use of Nuclear weapons) because of the fact that it has not prevented military conflict from occurring.

[Incubus]

"We needed to test out 2 bombs for the world."

By that rhetoric, you could execute any hostile action and claim it is a "test for the world." Pearl harbor - the Japanese were testing the effectiveness of 2 waves of Kamikaze fighters "for the world."

No. Simply because the USA is supposedly "the standard" of human morality, does not give it the right to "test things out for the better of the world." Using the rationale of "the end justifies the means" to account for human life is flawed, hypocritical and immoral. That's like saying;

"As the self proclaimed leading example of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, the USA hereby declares its moral superiority over that of people of other nations, and thus with this resolution find it an apt and reasonable decision to compromise the right to life of 200,000 completely innocent civilians, in order to promote freedom and democracy. Thereby we present a dubious solution to a vague presumption that another world war may or may not be avoided because of fear from other countries of our nuclear power."

And, no. There have been several major military conflicts after world war 2 that America has participated in.

Thus, the end does not justify the means, and even if it did, the end (World peace or a complete absence of wars/battles/etc.) has not been reached by the means (the use of Nuclear weapons) because of the fact that it has not prevented military conflict from occurring.




first of all, the 2 atomic bombs were not a test for the world. those 2 bombs were dropped on Japan to END the war and they worked. Japan surrendered after they found out we had more than one and they didn't want the next one dropping on the Emperor.
Again, we could have accomplished the same end by nOT using the bombs and instead invading Japan which arguably would have resulted in the loss of even more human life because the invasion would not have been confined to 2 cities but instead the entire land mass known as Japan. On top of that, instead of the war lasting for a week or so by using atomic weaponry, it would have lasted another 6 months? a year? a year and a half? again lengthening the war would have equated to MORE death and destruction than 2 nukes caused.

I guess I just advocated the use of nuclear weapons to save lives..... at least American lives which meant more to the administration and the American people than some slant eyed Nip back in 1945.

as far as M.A.D. goes... the use of Nuclear weaponry and the testing of nuclear weaponry and the knowledge that major world powers control nuclear weaponry HAS PREVENTED World War III from happening.
I never said that nukes would end ALL war. They haven't and never will. They have spawned a more "controlled" type of war known as proxy wars. Vietnam was a proxy war. do you believe thatthe USA gave a fuck about vietnam? Vietnam was a proxy war between china and russia vs the USA.
The korean war was a proxy war between china and russia vs the USA.
The Russian vs Afghan war was a proxy war with the USA vs Russia.

ALL OF THE conflicts between communism and Democracy have been proxy wars since WWII.
otherwise known as the "Cold War".

The only reason all of the opposing sides never went farther than what they did was because of M.A.D.

The Cuban Missile crisis during JFK's administration was not between cuba vs the USA but instead the USA vs Russia.

In ever single conflict since the use of nukes on Japan in WWII, no nukes have been dropped BY the USA or any of our enemies for the simple reason of M.A.D. and because all parties realize from Japan that these weapons are incredibly destructive SO YES the ENDS DO JUSTIFY THE MEANS.

How many lives have nukes saved by preventing all out war?

I could argue BILLIONS of lives.

so thank you FDR for having the balls to do what was needed for the planet's sake cuz if you didn't drop them... someone else would have at another time.


stick that in your pipe and smoke it.


This is why we all need to prevent Nuclear proliferation to other non nuclear countries.
ASK yourself this question... Why would any non nuclear country want to possess nukes and the technology to make nukes after realizing what we already know about their destructiveness?


you know the answer.


For example... the terrorists on 9-11-2001 flew airplanes into the world trade center, the pentagon and one crashed into a field in pennsylvania. WHY did the terrorists use airplanes for their attack? answer... because they lacked other military means to strike us. What if they had nuclear capability? what if people that lack self control and discipline and constraint got their hands on nuclear weapons? this planet may not be a planet that bacteria could survive on anymore.


The major powers of planet earth are trustworthy enough to maintain their nukes and have all the moral authority they need in preventing ANY new nation from developing their own. Heaven help us if that discontinues to be the accepted norm.



so you are arguing that the USA lacks the proper moral authority to try to prevent the spread of nuclear technology to non nuclear nations because we have used them in anger against another country in the past?

are you seriously making that argument with me?

that's how I am reading you.


why can't all nukes from every country go bye bye for good?

you also know the answer to that question. at least i hope you do.

[Oxll]

LoL SK I didn't post for one day and you wrote out a couple essays.

Ok first off, I love good rants about governments, and never take anything personally so no hard feelings over anything said here.

You and me have very opposite point of views on this aspect. I'm a firm believer that the BUSH party caused 9/11 themselves to pass particular legislation to justify them to enact parts of the Patriotic Act which took away freedoms from so many people. If you don't believe me, fine. I don't believe you and will never believe you that Bush didn't have a hand in that fucking fiasco. I'm not going to explain why, since both of us ain't gonna change our views.

The list of holidays you pointed out.... I was talking about Legal holidays. Well the only legal ones on that list that had any involvement with any religion were Christian ones... So wtf. I didn't mean ALL holidays cause Independence day and the such are not religious. Just all of the religious holidays that are stats are Christian.

Education... Canadians get a much broader variety of education. The things you have said are typical replies of an American fat on propaganda. You said I should fear you? Well atleast you would punch the person who hit you in the face. Your government however gets punched (well they made it look like they got hit) by the Taliban and your government goes and punches Iraq in the face. I'd much prefer a fight with someone who fought back rather then go fight someone else.

Americans like you SK give your country a bad rep. Sometimes its ok to admit your own faults rather then try to cover them with absurdities of other people being worse. You have to fix things at home, before you can go out and try to fix other countries problems. The world would be a much better place without the American dictatorship that we face now. Two party systems are worse then a sole party since the illusion of choice is worse then the realization of control. American or Taliban, the world would be better off if both were gone.

[Incubus]

LoL SK I didn't post for one day and you wrote out a couple essays.

Ok first off, I love good rants about governments, and never take anything personally so no hard feelings over anything said here.

You and me have very opposite point of views on this aspect. I'm a firm believer that the BUSH party caused 9/11 themselves to pass particular legislation to justify them to enact parts of the Patriotic Act which took away freedoms from so many people. If you don't believe me, fine. I don't believe you and will never believe you that Bush didn't have a hand in that fucking fiasco. I'm not going to explain why, since both of us ain't gonna change our views.

The list of holidays you pointed out.... I was talking about Legal holidays. Well the only legal ones on that list that had any involvement with any religion were Christian ones... So wtf. I didn't mean ALL holidays cause Independence day and the such are not religious. Just all of the religious holidays that are stats are Christian.

Education... Canadians get a much broader variety of education. The things you have said are typical replies of an American fat on propaganda. You said I should fear you? Well atleast you would punch the person who hit you in the face. Your government however gets punched (well they made it look like they got hit) by the Taliban and your government goes and punches Iraq in the face. I'd much prefer a fight with someone who fought back rather then go fight someone else.

Americans like you SK give your country a bad rep. Sometimes its ok to admit your own faults rather then try to cover them with absurdities of other people being worse. You have to fix things at home, before you can go out and try to fix other countries problems. The world would be a much better place without the American dictatorship that we face now. Two party systems are worse then a sole party since the illusion of choice is worse then the realization of control. American or Taliban, the world would be better off if both were gone.




all I can say is wow.

[brekken]

"We needed to test out 2 bombs for the world."

By that rhetoric, you could execute any hostile action and claim it is a "test for the world." Pearl harbor - the Japanese were testing the effectiveness of 2 waves of Kamikaze fighters "for the world."

No. Simply because the USA is supposedly "the standard" of human morality, does not give it the right to "test things out for the better of the world." Using the rationale of "the end justifies the means" to account for human life is flawed, hypocritical and immoral. That's like saying;

"As the self proclaimed leading example of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, the USA hereby declares its moral superiority over that of people of other nations, and thus with this resolution find it an apt and reasonable decision to compromise the right to life of 200,000 completely innocent civilians, in order to promote freedom and democracy. Thereby we present a dubious solution to a vague presumption that another world war may or may not be avoided because of fear from other countries of our nuclear power."

And, no. There have been several major military conflicts after world war 2 that America has participated in.

Thus, the end does not justify the means, and even if it did, the end (World peace or a complete absence of wars/battles/etc.) has not been reached by the means (the use of Nuclear weapons) because of the fact that it has not prevented military conflict from occurring.


Sk said it best, educateing some people is a full time job. when your post starts out with totally incorrect facts, the rest of it losses what little point it had. japan did not test out two waves of kamikaze fighters on pearl harbor. they attacked with two waves of fighter planes. the kamikaze attacks came later in the war when japan, short on supplies and trained pilots, became desperate and had untrained teens and young adults fly suicide missions with the sole intent of crashing their planes into targets. this was decided on because they had more planes then actual trained pilots. conscripts were a dime a dozen. did you ever go find one of those book things i have been telling you about?

[brekken]

LoL SK I didn't post for one day and you wrote out a couple essays.

Ok first off, I love good rants about governments, and never take anything personally so no hard feelings over anything said here.

You and me have very opposite point of views on this aspect. I'm a firm believer that the BUSH party caused 9/11 themselves to pass particular legislation to justify them to enact parts of the Patriotic Act which took away freedoms from so many people. If you don't believe me, fine. I don't believe you and will never believe you that Bush didn't have a hand in that fucking fiasco. I'm not going to explain why, since both of us ain't gonna change our views.

The list of holidays you pointed out.... I was talking about Legal holidays. Well the only legal ones on that list that had any involvement with any religion were Christian ones... So wtf. I didn't mean ALL holidays cause Independence day and the such are not religious. Just all of the religious holidays that are stats are Christian.

Education... Canadians get a much broader variety of education. The things you have said are typical replies of an American fat on propaganda. You said I should fear you? Well atleast you would punch the person who hit you in the face. Your government however gets punched (well they made it look like they got hit) by the Taliban and your government goes and punches Iraq in the face. I'd much prefer a fight with someone who fought back rather then go fight someone else.

Americans like you SK give your country a bad rep. Sometimes its ok to admit your own faults rather then try to cover them with absurdities of other people being worse. You have to fix things at home, before you can go out and try to fix other countries problems. The world would be a much better place without the American dictatorship that we face now. Two party systems are worse then a sole party since the illusion of choice is worse then the realization of control. American or Taliban, the world would be better off if both were gone.


does he truely believe a single word he just said? i mean holy shit, do you believe the obama admin caused this recesion so they could pass TARP and other massive spending measures? i bet lincoln intentionally caused the civil war so he could suspend habius corpus. FDR caused the great depresion so he could institute a welfare program. JFK had someone shoot him so people would overlook the bay of pigs, and nasa is trying to assassinate the president with earth quakes!

[Kalypto]

BIG BLOCK OF TEXT

My point is not that nuclear weapons may/may not have saved lives. My point is that, if the US has used nuclear weapons, it is in absolutely no position to have any semblance of authority dictating whether or not a foreign country may or even may not bear nuclear weapons.

As for the presumption that the nuclear bombs may have prevented more deaths in an all-out war, that's basically like saying,

"As long as we assume -- with no possible way of predicting -- that less Americans will be harmed by wiping our feet on the American constitution and taking these completely innocent peoples' rights to life away -- killing them -- then its worth it to drop the bomb and blow 200,000 random people to hell. Not counting radiation poisoning/all that crap."

Yup, that is the rhetoric of "if it saves even ONE life, its worth it!" In other words, if one life will be saved by compromising everything that America stands for, the right to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, etc, it's worth it! If I lived in an underground prison isolated for the rest of my life, I'd be completely immune to the dangers of life in general (Vehicle accidents, drug abuse, gang fights, terrorist attacks etc etc), would that be worth it?

"I'm going to nuke the middle east!"
"What? That's crazy!?"
"But I'm preventing terrorists from killing Americans!"
"Wait, you're going to kill all middle-eastern people under the vague presumption that terrorists are all middle-eastern?"
"Yep."
"Wait, isn't that discriminatory?!"
"WHAT? If it saves even ONE LIFE, ITS WORTH IT!"
"Wait, what about the lives and freedoms of all the innocent people that you are bombing?"
"Are you saying you DON'T WANT TO SAVE THE LIVES OF INNOCENT AMERICANS? ARE YOU SOME KIND OF TERRORIST?!"

No. My resolution stands. The ends never justifies the means. Let's end all war on earth by destroying everyone that lives on Earth. With no humans, there will be no more war on Earth! Genius! Let's save American lives by nuking Japan! Let's introduce prohibition laws on alcohol!

If it saves even one life, it's worth it!

No it's not. We all know how that turned out.


so you are arguing that the USA lacks the proper moral authority to try to prevent the spread of nuclear technology to non nuclear nations because we have used them in anger against another country in the past?

That is exactly what I am saying. If you abuse drugs, do you have the authority to tell your children not to? If you are a bad parent, do you have the authority to tell your children to be a good parent? If you use nuclear weapons to kill 200,000 people under the vague presumption that you are saving American lives by shitting on the rights and freedoms of others, do you have the moral authority to tell other countries not to wield nuclear weapons?

No, you do not.

[Kalypto]

Sk said it best, educateing some people is a full time job. when your post starts out with totally incorrect facts, the rest of it losses what little point it had. japan did not test out two waves of kamikaze fighters on pearl harbor. they attacked with two waves of fighter planes. the kamikaze attacks came later in the war when japan, short on supplies and trained pilots, became desperate and had untrained teens and young adults fly suicide missions with the sole intent of crashing their planes into targets. this was decided on because they had more planes then actual trained pilots. conscripts were a dime a dozen. did you ever go find one of those book things i have been telling you about?

I'm using specific details about pearl harbor -- kamikaze -- to illustrate the specific incident -- Hiroshima and Nagasaki -- as opposed to the *whole* -- pearl harbor attack -- to the entire -- World War 2 -- .

Regardless, you've completely missed the point.

[Incubus]

My point is not that nuclear weapons may/may not have saved lives. My point is that, if the US has used nuclear weapons, it is in absolutely no position to have any semblance of authority dictating whether or not a foreign country may or even may not bear nuclear weapons.

As for the presumption that the nuclear bombs may have prevented more deaths in an all-out war, that's basically like saying,

"As long as we assume -- with no possible way of predicting -- that less Americans will be harmed by wiping our feet on the American constitution and taking these completely innocent peoples' rights to life away -- killing them -- then its worth it to drop the bomb and blow 200,000 random people to hell. Not counting radiation poisoning/all that crap."

Yup, that is the rhetoric of "if it saves even ONE life, its worth it!" In other words, if one life will be saved by compromising everything that America stands for, the right to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, etc, it's worth it! If I lived in an underground prison isolated for the rest of my life, I'd be completely immune to the dangers of life in general (Vehicle accidents, drug abuse, gang fights, terrorist attacks etc etc), would that be worth it?

"I'm going to nuke the middle east!"
"What? That's crazy!?"
"But I'm preventing terrorists from killing Americans!"
"Wait, you're going to kill all middle-eastern people under the vague presumption that terrorists are all middle-eastern?"
"Yep."
"Wait, isn't that discriminatory?!"
"WHAT? If it saves even ONE LIFE, ITS WORTH IT!"
"Wait, what about the lives and freedoms of all the innocent people that you are bombing?"
"Are you saying you DON'T WANT TO SAVE THE LIVES OF INNOCENT AMERICANS? ARE YOU SOME KIND OF TERRORIST?!"

No. My resolution stands. The ends never justifies the means. Let's end all war on earth by destroying everyone that lives on Earth. With no humans, there will be no more war on Earth! Genius! Let's save American lives by nuking Japan! Let's introduce prohibition laws on alcohol!

If it saves even one life, it's worth it!

No it's not. We all know how that turned out.



That is exactly what I am saying. If you abuse drugs, do you have the authority to tell your children not to? If you are a bad parent, do you have the authority to tell your children to be a good parent? If you use nuclear weapons to kill 200,000 people under the vague presumption that you are saving American lives by shitting on the rights and freedoms of others, do you have the moral authority to tell other countries not to wield nuclear weapons?

No, you do not.




this is not even worth my time arguing anymore because you are just flat out wrong.

ps. who were these innocent people in WWII that were bombed?

oh yea NOW I REMEMBER... it was the thousands of Americans the Japs bombed and killed at Pearl Harbor while they were deceiving FDR's administration with false diplomacy while we were at peace with Japan.

America was bombed while we were at PEACE with Japan that started WWII for America.

America dropped 2 atomic bombs and killed a shitload of japs while AT WAR with Japan to return to Peace.

who were these innocents that lost their lives Ixen? oh yea AMERICANS.



furthermore, whether you or anyone else believes we have the moral authority to prevent nuclear proliferation or not is irrelevant. only an evil fucking fool hellbent on the world's destruction would be for nuclear proliferation.

why is America so vocal against nuclear proliferation? cuz we are the last remaining super power on the globe and we fucking say so bitch. that answer should be good enough for you and any other shit head that feels like America owes ANYONE an explanation for anything.


don't like that attitude? then please please please step up and take over for us in being planet earth's and the UN's police man.

what's that? your country lacks just about everything under the sun to take over that role? yea we already know that (insert any country on earth) and stfu until you do.
:P

[brekken]

I'm using specific details about pearl harbor -- kamikaze -- to illustrate the specific incident -- Hiroshima and Nagasaki -- as opposed to the *whole* -- pearl harbor attack -- to the entire -- World War 2 -- .

Regardless, you've completely missed the point.


i skipped your point or lack there of, because the "specific details" you used were false and inacurate, as i pointed out. kamikaze attacks had nothing to do with pearl harbor.

[Sith]

the kamikaze attacks came later in the war when japan, short on supplies and trained pilots, became desperate and had untrained teens and young adults fly suicide missions with the sole intent of crashing their planes into targets. this was decided on because they had more planes then actual trained pilots.

I saw a japanese comedian tonight. He said kamikazee's weren't suicide bombers, but bad asian drivers put into a cockpit.

[Oxll]

LoL


Brekken, bout the earlier post which you somehow misunderstood. JFK was your last and best free Leader. After that you've pretty much had a thumb shoved up your ass and a bible slammed down on your cock. Bill Clinton was not too shabby except he was more of a hollywood star then a leader. He was a great smoke screen for black ops.

So seriously, dismiss this shit as conspiracy, but thats what they want people to do. The fucking proof is there, just you don't really care about the issue. So don't give me this bullshit you guys are getting tired of teaching me, when you spew things that are so wrong it makes me laugh. Kamikazi fighters were used in Pearl Harbor. It was an honor to take ones life in such a manner. Yes the frequency increased after Iwo Jima since desperation caused more to take their own lives. But to say they didn't use them during Pearl Harbor is just plain dumb.

You should be more open minded. You sound like one of those Americans "do they have Coke in Canada?" types when you guys spew off on how Arabs are the problem, not Americans. Seriously, take a big step back and look at the issue from a third party perspective. You'd see a Small and Bushy Dick Fucking a Brown and Dirty Asshole. Not a pretty sight, and both stink of shit just as bad.

[Incubus]

LoL


Brekken, bout the earlier post which you somehow misunderstood. JFK was your last and best free Leader. After that you've pretty much had a thumb shoved up your ass and a bible slammed down on your cock. Bill Clinton was not too shabby except he was more of a hollywood star then a leader. He was a great smoke screen for black ops.


wrong wrong and wrong


So seriously, dismiss this shit as conspiracy, but thats what they want people to do. The fucking proof is there, just you don't really care about the issue. So don't give me this bullshit you guys are getting tired of teaching me, when you spew things that are so wrong it makes me laugh. Kamikazi fighters were used in Pearl Harbor. It was an honor to take ones life in such a manner. Yes the frequency increased after Iwo Jima since desperation caused more to take their own lives. But to say they didn't use them during Pearl Harbor is just plain dumb.




once again I have to provide you with the education you obviously failed to obtain in your life so far.

http://www.airgroup4.com/kamikaze.htm



You should be more open minded. You sound like one of those Americans "do they have Coke in Canada?" types when you guys spew off on how Arabs are the problem, not Americans. Seriously, take a big step back and look at the issue from a third party perspective. You'd see a Small and Bushy Dick Fucking a Brown and Dirty Asshole. Not a pretty sight, and both stink of shit just as bad.



i have stepped back and am looking at you and I am forced to conclude that you are one of the most ignorant people I have thus far argued with.

I'm not trying to flame you. I am very serious. Reading your posts and what you believe makes me embarassed for you.

please shhhhh from now on.

[brekken]

LoL


Brekken, bout the earlier post which you somehow misunderstood. JFK was your last and best free Leader. After that you've pretty much had a thumb shoved up your ass and a bible slammed down on your cock. Bill Clinton was not too shabby except he was more of a hollywood star then a leader. He was a great smoke screen for black ops.

So seriously, dismiss this shit as conspiracy, but thats what they want people to do. The fucking proof is there, just you don't really care about the issue. So don't give me this bullshit you guys are getting tired of teaching me, when you spew things that are so wrong it makes me laugh. Kamikazi fighters were used in Pearl Harbor. It was an honor to take ones life in such a manner. Yes the frequency increased after Iwo Jima since desperation caused more to take their own lives. But to say they didn't use them during Pearl Harbor is just plain dumb.

You should be more open minded. You sound like one of those Americans "do they have Coke in Canada?" types when you guys spew off on how Arabs are the problem, not Americans. Seriously, take a big step back and look at the issue from a third party perspective. You'd see a Small and Bushy Dick Fucking a Brown and Dirty Asshole. Not a pretty sight, and both stink of shit just as bad.

first, if JFK had not been shot, he would have gone down as one of america's worst presidents of the century along with jimmy carter. second, Clinton couldn't have been a decent president because he didnt do anything. he stayed out of the way and rode Reagen's econimic wave and took credit for Gingritche's welfare reform. he ignored numerous terrorist attacks such as the kenya embasy bombing and the USS Cole, yet when a white stain was found on a blue dress belonging to an intern, he bombed our allies in kuwait! third, there is not one case of a kamikaze fighter in the pearl harbor attack. that is plain fact, you can deny it all you want, it simply makes you wrong and ignorant. 9/11 was commited by muslim extreamists, not by US politicians. however, it can be argued that clinton allowed it to happen. here is a true story for you. the CIA have bin laden in the cross hairs of a .308 sniper rifle yet he is on the wrong side of an imaginary red line that can only be seen on a map. a call is placed for presidential approval to fire and eliminate the greatest terrorist threat to the US. President Clinton is out playing golf at the time and has asked not to be disturbed. Vice President Al Gore recieves the call and is unwilling to give approval because he thinks that he should consult the president first. he puts the CIA on hold until Clinton returns from his golf game. by this time the opportunity is gone and bin laden lives to blow up the twin towers and damage the pentagon killing over 3000 US civilians!

take your uneducated bull shit elsewhere ox, it wont fly here. there are a few people that dont buy the blame bush hype and actually learn what the truth is.

[Oxll]

SK Brekken. I hope to god this was some joke. If you actually support Bush, and knock JFK and Clinton you two are the ones who need to be embarassed. Do you not realize that if you came to any part of Canada, spewed off about how great bush was, you would get your ass fucking kicked?

Now If you went anywhere in the world the same shit would most likely happen. When I say you are as bad as arabs, perhaps you should fucking travel the world one time. You'd find out quickly how more people support my point of view on Bush, then those that support your patriotic banter.

So go ahead, support America being the fucking assholes of the world. You think i'm not educated, but i've done so much research in this topic that it sickens me to see americans fooled by the propaganda. How could you blame the Arabs, when you were the ones who trained them to do these terrorist attacks? Oh wait you probably don't have a fucking clue to what i'm talking about. Perhaps the word Muhajadeen might trigger something? They were trained to fight russia with the exact same tactics that they are currently whopping you with now. Call me stupid all you want, but Americans take the cake. Can't even beat the people that they taught.

To the other americans who support throwing Bush into jail for war crimes, I support you for your intelligence, and your courage to say things in a country where people are so ignorant they avoid they truth.

Thanks for you time you two. I think you've pretty much proved my point that Americans definately shouldn't have Nukes.

[Oxll]

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

If you haven't seen this, I recommend watching it. Might open your eyes.

Or call it conspiracy crap, but it is a great watch, with points that are hard to ignore.

Zeitgeist 'the movie' is the one you want to start with.

[Doula Doom]

I'm basically of the same side of this debate as you, Oxll, but do not use Zeitgeist as a good talking point. Its incredibly one sided and has no end of falsehoods in it. Its very entertaining but <A Href="http://www.conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/">shouldn't be brought up as evidence</A> unless the discussion is about propoganda.

[Incubus]

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

If you haven't seen this, I recommend watching it. Might open your eyes.

Or call it conspiracy crap, but it is a great watch, with points that are hard to ignore.

Zeitgeist 'the movie' is the one you want to start with.



i thought i told you to Shhhh.

I cringe everytime you post.

you derive your information from what appears to be nothing but propaganda and bullshit as do the people you apparently know and agree with on these issues.

i'll ask you once again to shhhhhhh.

it's ok to have an opinion BUT when you are trying to sell your opinions as fact when they are NOT FACT, you come off as ignorant.

i'm tryin to do you a favor here and not flame you.

sincerely... shhhh.


ps. my aunt works for the CIA. she worked at 1 world trade center in 2001. she was there the day of the attack. she lived. there was/is no such bullshit conspiracy so stfu. My cousin is a full bird colonel that works/worked at the pentagon. He was there working 9-11-01. there is no conspiracy there either.

once again stfu.

errr i mean shhhhh.

[brekken]

wow im suprised ox actually knew about the SF training of the afganis, now what group was it that trained them? i never said i was a bush fan, i am just smart enough to realize that he isnt to blame for everything. regan was a great president. clinton and JFK dont even belong with in 100 miles of that word. i cant believe you tried to use zeitgeist as evidence to support your oppinion, all that did was make you look even more retarded.

as for oppinions of bush around the world, europe hates him but guess what? they are socialist morons too! he took a third of the vote in the first ever iraqi election by write in! one third of the iraqis that voted wrote in Bush instead of voteing for their own candidates!
(this is fact)

i highly doubt that either of us would get our asses kicked in canada for anything, yall run from a good fight worse then the french. as far as im concerned, the more canada and france hate an american president and hate america because of him, the better the president he must be.
(this is oppinion, notice how they are seperated and not intermingled. Notice also how i do not attempt to pass off the later as fact)

here is fact for you ox, you say we need to travel somewhere other then the US, i can be pretty sure i have spent more time over seas in far more countries then you have. i have spent atleast 6 months in south east asia, 3 months in australia, 4months in africa and 14 months in the middle east. so as SK said, Shhh and ill give you the same advice i give to ixen almost daily, go read a book

[Oxll]

I seperated my posts quite clearly. I wouldn't use Zeitgeist as fact.

I posted it to show my point of view. I don't take everything in Zeitgeist as truth. I do however find many things in it intriguing, and it set me on the course of looking things up, checking their source, and asking questions.

These forum posts are not so serious. I get along with many Americans, and respect the soldiers out there putting their lives at risk. We were arguing for the sake of arguing if you look back through the threads. I don't like war. Plain and simple. Those who support it confuse me.

I mock Bush, and America because they are one of the largest proponents of war on earth. So its not "I hate you cause your stupid" (america has some of the brightest minds around), its because your ways cause pain in so many countries. Then to hear you call out the Arabs, and Muslims makes me speak up. So SHHHH is hard for me.

Brekken, that is alot of traveling. I've been to every continent, and it would be hard to list the countries. Are you in the military? Did you travel to those places as a civilian or soldier?

[Lithrien]

those who result to flat-out insults are clearly wrong!

brekken went to one year of community college, oxll - he has an EDUMACATION. you should GET ONE.

[Doula Doom]

HEY LITH HOWS IT GOING?

[Sith]

Brekken's served in the military if I remember correctly

[brekken]

the middle east and africa were with the military, australia and south east asia were as a civilian. as for my education, i am about to get my degree in political science and constitutional law, got accepted to Tulane law school for the fall semester of 2010

[Lithrien]

HEY MAN LONG TIME NO SEE LOL

[Poetent Destruction]

Scouring through these posts, I've come to one conclusion. Government coming into the lives of the populus, just creates havoc. Now, as per the Nukes, they shouldn't be eradicated, but they should be operational either. Given the fact that we (as Americans) have used them, we know their devastation, and technology has become WAY more advanced since then, and with the capabilities of those now produced, it would level an entire country with just 2 bombs. America included.

My second point, is it's not the president that makes the decisions, it's his cabinet, advisors, and multiple other factors. The president of current time is just the fall guy. When the person is running for office, he doesn't write the speeches, others do. Everything stated by said person isn't his own ideals, or they were crammed into his head, being how (s)he thought the same way. It's all set up to allow the behind the scenes movement. There are things that the PRESIDENT himself doesn't know that going on behind the curtain, he just knows he's the one that will get the blame when shit goes south.

My political views are that of a Libertarian. Don't fuck with me in any way (this is to the government) and I'll be happy. My money, is mine. I'll pay taxes, that doesn't bother me, don't raise 'em (lower them all you want, the more I have, the more I spend. :D), don't mess with my little world, and I'll gladly jump off a bridge for you, if it meant not being messed with.

[Queq]

The numbers are all available, and to see where the money goes is insulting to any intelligent north american.

So for the record lets get this straight. You would say there is not any intelligent South Americans? I trust the gun toting hillbilly to any Socialist Democratic bleeding heart piece of shit out there. That Hillbilly is going to go to work pay his taxes and not suck off Uncle Sams tit for half there life.

[Doula Doom]

So for the record lets get this straight. You would say there is not any intelligent South Americans? I trust the gun toting hillbilly to any Socialist Democratic bleeding heart piece of shit out there. That Hillbilly is going to go to work pay his taxes and not suck off Uncle Sams tit for half there life.

What planet are you from? The hillbillies pretty much all rely on welfare to survive, which is why they live in such squalor. Now, I'm not saying any race is better than that, but I'd be hard pressed to believe any argument that says they are any worse than americans.

[Queq]

Doula,

Actually my parents are hillbilly's in Texas they own about 45 acres of land there house in right in the middle of it. They grow the own food, my Dad hunts deer and other animals for food, reloads his own bullets. I honestly thought we where poor people till I was around age 15 and noticed such things as what people had because my parents never gave me money and so forth like some other kids at the time. So yes there hillbillys by most accounts as many Southners are, but we take care of our own and don't ask for someone to provide for us. I honestly thought Oxll was talking about North and South USA till I re read it, but that was my bad. As for the hillbilly thing I am proud to be one of the gun toting people who will and has served for this country. Sorry about the misread there oxll.

[Doula Doom]

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[mcflea]

are we gonna disarm all the phsyco,s that wanna die ,and KILL for whichever god they beleive in ??if so how if we all disarm only the nutcases will have the nukes , the idea is grand and i wish it would happen but not practical at this time in history

[Incubus]

are we gonna disarm all the phsyco,s that wanna die ,and KILL for whichever god they beleive in ??if so how if we all disarm only the nutcases will have the nukes , the idea is grand and i wish it would happen but not practical at this time in history



i'm all for killing everyone that disagrees with me.

there'd be a A LOT LESS traffic that way.

:)

[Alejandro]

kaboom